Not being a jerk, but that's why I posted the Bayshore Marathon comment and yes, it's in Michigan.
No problem. just corrected that on blog.
race director pointed out that these oddities alone do NOT constitute strong evidence of cheating. for a slam dunk you need people who finished right behind him to say they've never seen the guy. if im ever a race director if i see some guy changing outfits and covering bib numbers im going to try and DQ the person, it's just inexcusable I dont know why people cover up their bib numbers all the time.
it reminds me of how when i competed in high school they made us tuck in our singlets. and for track relays (e.g. 4x8,4x4) we needed same color undershirt. things like that. at road races Kip can 1) start 4mins after everyone else and still be awards eligible 2) 2) run a low 250 marathon net time for a Boston Qualifier 3) strip jackets, pants, sometimes shoes, & put on a black longsleeve & walk across the line with no bib number showing. I'm guessing race photographers still find his pic(s) post-race even if no bib number is showing because they have a timeline based on the D-Tag info?
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 5:48PM - in reply to Study of K.Litton Running
The circumstantial evidence is compelling, but doesn't really prove anything.
True. But since Rosie Ruiz, new methods are supposed to catch people. According to wikipedia.com on the Aftermath of the Rosie Ruiz scandal:
As a result of the scandal, the Boston Marathon and several other races instituted a number of safeguards against cheating that are still used today. These include extensive video surveillance and the transponder timing RFID system that monitors electronically when runners arrive at various checkpoints on the course. These techniques have been used to identify other would-be cheaters, notably 'Jean's Marines', a group of charity runners who were caught cutting the course during the 2005 Marine Corps Marathon." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_ruiz
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 6:32PM - in reply to sldkfjasdiu
I do find it odd the site, like worldrecordrun.com, is off-line.
supposedly worldrecordrun.com is off-line because it had some marathon performances listed there where he had later been DQ'ed, plus there was a question as to where the donations were going (to his website/CF) or something. ive never seen the site, since it was taken offline last Fall during the 1st LetsRun Kip thread.[/quote]
The site was removed because I asked him to remove it. There is more to this but I'm not at liberty to discuss it.
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 6:58PM - in reply to off course Oscar
first - no one is 'hating' on kip. this guys has continually cheated, that is all we are saying. and I don't feel bad that people are pointing it out in a public forum. if he didn't want publicity like this then he should not have cheated time and time and time again. or just stopped cheating when the publicity started. it is really that simple. it is made even worse by kip allowing newspaper articles about him, making ridiculous claims about running 50 marathons in sub 3 hours and cheating in 5ks.
and the evidence is overwhelming - even the absurd starting fiasco. what kind of charity pays out based on the number or runners you pass? wouldn't it be a thousand times more reliable to just pay out based on how many people finish behind you in the race? in other words based on official race placing. and where is this policy written, 'based on how many people he passes', in a contract somewhere? very doubtful. once questions arise he could simply say, ok, payout is based on the number of people who finish behind me in the official results. and these weird starts also contribute to the evidence - no way you can pass that many people and run close to your pr for the first few miles of a race. no way.
he deserves all the negative publicity he gets - it is really very simple, kip if you are reading this - stop cheating and people will stop talking!! and no one is hating - we are just pointing out the obvious.
off course Oscar wrote:
With all due respect oldxcdude, are you actually reading other the other posts or just wandering aimlessly throughout this thread, seriously?
I explained why and I will do it again. If you were running sub 3 hour pace with a group for mile after mile, you'd get to know those around you and they would know you. You don't want to be remembered. Still with me?
If you start with a delayed start, the odds are much better that no one else is going to remember you as going off the course here or there. Even if they did, they aren't going to see you again because you are finishing an hour or so before them. The odds increase because those you end up in front of will never remember passing you, because they didn't.
To figure this guy out, you have to think like him.
If you were going to cheat and run 2:53, would you start with those runners at that pace and possibly be asked what's your goal, your name, or what do you want to hit halfway in? Then you would be remembered, right? You don't want that so you start back and slowly pass people until it's time for exit stage left.
Remember, to cheat, you, I or anyone would have to leave the course somewhere and get back on somewhere else and as obvious as that is, it is that simplistic.
I saw a guy years ago rip his number off in disgust at about 16 miles in a marathon and then vanish. But later I saw him cross the finish line as I waited for a friend to finish. When he stopped, he didn't want a ride, nor did he want to talk, and neither does this guy. He doesn't want to be remembered by anyone leaving or re-entering.
It's like cheating on a test without studying. He didn't train enough or more than likely isn't capable of running such a time at 49, so he shortens the test and increases his odds by wearing different equipment, as in shoes, shorts, a hat, sunglasses, etc....
Notice his body weight, stride, etc....when he is running compared to those around him. A 2:51, right. Where are his legitimate 10k road races in at least 34 plus range? I have yet to see one. Nothing adds up and it won't.
Instead of cheating at 3:30 pace, he got greedy and bit off more than he could chew, as someone said he apparently did at the Bobby Crim 10 miler, running a sub 57 and then having to claim he took a wrong turn when he was either spotted or new it would not pass.
Don't over think this. If he has an accomplice or not, his practice of starting back in the pack is part of the illusion, aka his Method of Operation. If he started in the front, he would be swallowed up quickly and not be able to maintain that pace for very long. Check out the Bay Shore Marathon course. Talk about easy.
Carry on Mates!
off course Oscar
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 7:35PM - in reply to truth911
False sir. It is not circumstantial. Let me explain.
When a race director is at the halfway point of a marathon and takes photos and the guy never passes that point, how is that circumstantial? It's not, it is instead factual. I understand exactly what you are saying, but if he doesn't show up at certain mat points or on video/photographs, he did not run the entire race and therefore it's factual, he cheated.
Why did he not fight the charges and argue his case like any of us would have? Because one email was enough for him and he went away to try again.
As far as Scott H's remarks about there being more to it, that doesn't surprise me in the least and knew it to be true. But.......eventually, it will all come out. I have met Scott and he knows that this Teflon Litton guy did not take a wrong turn at any point during the Crim 10 miler, no one does that.
It proves more than you think aldkfjasdiu and it's more factual than circumstantial.
But you have the right to think what you'd like, even though commom sense and logic show you are incorrect.
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 8:06PM - in reply to off course Oscar
You all must agree with this. There are certain things that ARE factual and that can't be explained. Why was he disqualified at other races? Face it, he cheated for whatever reasons, I could care. Run it or watch it, but don't cheat others out of their rightful place and in some cases, he actually took money away from others. Sorry, that would piss me off.
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 8:13PM - in reply to marathon4everguy
But if one or more are a slam dunk, aka factual, then it doesn't make the circumstantial races look like they hold much water.
I too am pissed that he took money away from guys who earned it and it surely doesn't help to know that he's a dentist, more than likely making a decent living which he rightfully earned (we hope) by going to school and playing by the rules. But then it takes money away from others who earned it and has no remorse. I think he's in hot water, real hot water and he knows it.
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 9:11PM - in reply to off course Oscar
only thing that's happened to him so far is if someone Googles him, a bunch of running links and letsrun threads about his cheating come up along with his dental office. i feel bad about that but ...best way for him to shut his critics (and us) up is to stop the suspicious activity and go run some marathons in 3:00+ or whatever type of marathoner he really is.
afraid of dentists
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 10:08PM - in reply to off course Oscar
I too am pissed that he took money away from guys who earned it and it surely doesn't help to know that he's a dentist,
That's what is scary about this guy. Did he cheat his way through school to become a dentist? Does he cut corners while working on people's teeth? Hopefully his patients google his name and find out that they're letting a sociopath with sharp instruments work in their mouth.
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread1/8/2011 10:20PM - in reply to afraid of dentists
Not that you were replying or agreeing with me Scott, but I concur that we are on the same page. He's in trouble and whatever he won will most likely be given back, trust me on that part of it. A whole can a worms has now been opened up and those who were cheated out of money have a case worth looking at. Wait for it everybody.
1:06 plus at the Crim 2 years in a row and then suddenly an annouced goal of a sub 60:00, ends up with a sub 57 and claims of a wrong turn. Why not DNF and avoid the confusion? It doesn't add up.
A 2:51 marathon at age 49 averaging around 6:27 pace. Second half marathon splits averaging 6:11 (1:22 half pace) but runs an open half in a sub 1:29 just over 4 months later in 6:44 pace.
How's this folks? He dropped 29 seconds "per mile" from one Gasparilla 15k to the next (09'-10'). He ran 54:05 in February of 2010. That is equal to something close to a sub 2:44 marathon and a 58:30 10 mile race.
If he did that 54:05 15k and marathons were his bread and butter, one would think he would have more than one sub 2:50 under his belt. So he's gotten more speed as he's aged but lost endurance? Yeah, that makes sense.
Sorry folks, but when you do this you lose all credibility and the burden of proof is now shifted on him, as in prove you did these races in full versus the race directors having to prove that he didn't.
Then you involve a charity and raising money for a cause.
Sorry, but I believe the RD's who have disqualified him and crazy splits that just don't add up.